Why so much hate, Berries?

[sugarfoot]

Also, why is it that people only have this insecurity when it comes to males having a "feminine" name - we NEVER see it going to opposite way, so where are all the people who want to give their sons a feminine name? I think that would be very, very few people - which is why this trend irks me to no end.

People don't typically choose to give their sons feminine names for the same reason they don't send them to school in a dress. Traditionally, women wear skirts/dresses and men wear pants. However, no one would think it odd when a little girl walks onto the school yard wearig a pair of pants. this would not blow over so welll if the roles were reversed and a little boy came to school in a dress. Yes, some names are decidedly feminine, and some are decidedly male. But the reason a boys name can work on a girl, and it does not work the same for a boy, is the same as the above example. It's part of the whole "girls can do anything boys can do" feminist thing. Culturally, girls are encouraged to be strong and basically more masculine in energy to get ahead in school, work, and life in general. Boys are not encouraged to be soft and feminine because let's face it, historically, soft and feminine doesn't work in an aggressive work environment. Or in any position of power. A girl with a boy name will feel strong, a boy with a girl name will feel soft. And no one hopes their son will be a "sissy". Gender roles exist people. It's part of our evolution. Get over it.

[dantea]

I was friends in high school with a boy named Jarrod who wore kilts regularly (not part of his heritage) and a boy who wore a dress often, we also had several boys who dressed as women and wore make up and what not and after an initial, "wow what?" People generally got over it.

Same with the boys on my list up there who play with barbies or have girl names. They moved past it, embraced it and none of them felt weaker...they felt stronger for overcoming it.

Again, I'm for clear gender lines with names, i'm just saying, it happens and people do move on with their lives.

Edit -- i think there's a man named Chelsea on here who says kind of the same thing as "I am stronger for having a feminine name"

[east93]

If you research the history of American naming influences and styles, it was once very common for boys to be named after their mothers, grandmothers, etc. and for girls to be named after fathers or grandfathers. Especially during Puritan times and even now in the deep South. I went to high school with boys named Cate, Lauren, and Courtney and girls named James, Evan, and Michael. No one ever picked on them for their names because it wasn't weird or abnormal.

And I believe most people that used a boy name on a girl or vice versa had a reason to do so, it was a family name or they just loved it and it felt like "the" name. I find it hard to believe someone would use a name just to make a social statement. After all, even the people who are choosing Jayden and McKynlie actually like those names, even if they do falsely believe they are "unique."

And I agree with you about online being very different from real life, only in the opposite way. In the real world, people are so used to meeting Aiden's, Logan's, Mason's, MacKenzie's, etc. from varying genders that it has almost become the norm. A female Andrew or Evan wouldn't even raise eyebrows in most circumstances. My daughter Rowan is one of 4 Rowan's at my pediatrician's office, 2 being boys, 2 being girls. The other day, I met a baby girl named Lincoln and her older sister Wylie. Granted, I live in a pretty hipster town but I can't see it being that much different in other parts of the country. And I did grow up with a unisex name and I loved it, while my good friend who was one of 5 Jessica's in our class absolutely despised her name and wished desperately to change it to Merrick (Anne Rice geeks...) So, yes I do think there is a large population of women that would have preferred an unusual male name to their bland girly names.

I still have the believe that boys names should stay on boys, and girls on girls, but knowing that makes it a tad better. I still don't particularly agree with either way at all though.

I don't know where you live, but it's drastically different here. I actually asked the people I knew their thoughts on it, and not a single person liked it. Some had even worse things to say that what's been posted on the boards.
Just because an outward reaction isn't given doesn't mean it's liked/accepted. I've noticed adults tend to keep negative thoughts and reactions to themselves, and not display them in front of the named child or parents. But trust, behind closed doors or to other people? They make their comments.

That maybe true, and it's definitely a possibility, I just don't agree with it. Boys names are for boys, girls names are for girls, unisex are for both. I don't believe in mixing things up just because we can. Many people feel differently, however, and that's in their right. But I just don't see how others think it's nothing, like it's "supposed" to be like that. It's very peculiar to me. There are tons of girls names that are not girly girly, and male names that are not totally macho, there's a balance for reasons like that.

Alas, many people disagree and it's their kid so they can choose any name they feel fit, I'm backing out of future discussions on it, because it's pointless and it's not my name or child, so my input really doesn't have value.

[jam3003]

And shouldn't it be our job to break down their gender role stereotypes? We see that with women in the workplace, women voting, and men being stay at home dads. I don't see anything wrong with a strong female or sensitive male and vice versa. Ultimately, our views on gender roles is shaped by our environment (how our parents raise us and society) and partially what you choose to identify as regardless of biological sex. I don't know how it is in other countries, but I feel in the US there is a lot of fluidity with gender and gender roles and your name is only one part of that.

http://www.listaholic.com/male-celeb...dle-names.html Here's an interesting list of male celebrities with female middle names. And my grandpa's middle name is Leslie, which I thought was odd growing up but I realized there was Leslie Nielsen, so that's cool.

[east93]

And shouldn't it be our job to break down their gender role stereotypes? We see that with women in the workplace, women voting, and men being stay at home dads. I don't see anything wrong with a strong female or sensitive male and vice versa. Ultimately, our views on gender roles is shaped by our environment (how our parents raise us and society) and partially what you choose to identify as regardless of biological sex. I don't know how it is in other countries, but I feel in the US there is a lot of fluidity with gender and gender roles and your name is only one part of that.

http://www.listaholic.com/male-celeb...dle-names.html Here's an interesting list of male celebrities with female middle names. And my grandpa's middle name is Leslie, which I thought was odd growing up but I realized there was Leslie Nielsen, so that's cool.

...It's names. Words that are inherently male or female or unisex, you can't change the origins or the meanings.

We don't call pears apples just because we want to.
There's nothing to break down in terms of "gender roles" when it comes to names. There are no set gender roles with names.

I don't understand why people think that equality means ignoring the fact that men are men, and women are women, and that we are different regardless of sexual orientation, or preferences in careers, child-rearing, and clothing choices. Using boys names on girls isn't a problem solver, it creates problems imo. What's there to be ashamed of with gender roles? You either follow them or you don't, there's not need to make it this big deal were names need to be re-arraigned and redistributed.

If you want your child to be gender ambiguous, give them a unisex name. Don't start labeling girls as boys, which is labeling them as a gender, to try to keep them genderless...that's counteractive.

And who says a girl named Edward wants to defy gender roles? Some women are fine with them, and prefer them over the alternatives. We don't know that a female Edward's going to defy "society's female standards", she might as well fall right into them. I don't think we should make that assumption and actively make a name choice that displays that.
Female Andrew, as an example, is an assumption that she'll be that way. Female Andrea isn't an assumption of either way because it's just a girls name on a girl. It doesn't make a declaration of any stance on gender roles. Andrew on a girl does.

[sugarfoot]

Dantea and Jam3003...if you are respondig to me, I think you are misreading what I am saying here.. I think it's obvious that the workforce has been historically male-dominated. That is why masculine energy is the more desired trait in that arena. A soft and feminine man or woman is far less likely to become CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It's just hard wired into our DNA to respect that kid of authority. Having a more or less feminine/masculine name will not determine success, but it will definitely shape the child for better or worse, and it will definitely affect first impressions. I'm only offering an explanation as to why people in general use masculine names for girls and not feminine names for boys. I'm not giving my own personal opinion on the matter. I'm not a unisex namer, but I understand why some people are and I can see the appeal. Maybe working in an aggressive an professional business environment has shaped my idea on the matter. I can see how someone who works in a less competitive environment like day-care, or someone who has not yet entered the work force might not see it as clearly.

[ashthedreamer]

http://www.listaholic.com/male-celeb...dle-names.html Here's an interesting list of male celebrities with female middle names. And my grandpa's middle name is Leslie, which I thought was odd growing up but I realized there was Leslie Nielsen, so that's cool.

90% of those actors don't have female names, though. They have unisex names. Paige, Kim, Shannon, Lynn--they all have masculine origins. I know a male Lynn and it's not a fluke of nature--Lynn genuinely did start out on guys! Same with Paige, Kim(berly), Shannon, etc. The only one that actually had a feminine MN (as far as I can tell) was the guy with the mn Tiffany. And Regan. Reagan is unisex, but Regan is feminine, from what I've heard. Regan could have honestly just been a spelling mistake, Reagan is very recognized on boys still.

[amberdaydream]

I’m gonna have to thrown in on this one. As far as unisex names go, I just have to like the name, and if I like it enough I’ll use it on a boy or a girl. Two combos I’m obsessing over right now are Ellis Mariana (girl) and Ellis Jasper (boy). I’m also considering Ellison Mariana / Ellison Jasper, with the nn Ellis. I can and do just as easily obsess over Silas (boy) and Annabella (girl.) There seems to be a notion that liking unisex names means you can never like frilly names, but I just don’t think that’s true. I think you can like names, full stop.

--I fully agree there is a rather disproportionate amount of hatred towards originally masculine names on girls. Not the people suggesting these names, but the names themselves. However I am not asking this to alter – if you don’t like a name, by all means say so. I can’t make someone like Ellison on a girl, and I don’t plan to try to. All that’s really required is respect towards the posters.

--I fully agree that it is irritating that there is a social stigma attached to feminine names on boys, but not as much vice versa.

--I fully agree a gender-free name pool would be fantastic, and I think in the future that will be the case, or close to it.

--I don’t think unisex names are as problematic as people think. You can actually just say ‘I’m a boy/girl.’

--The diversity of naming styles on NB is wonderful. I (and, I presume, all of you) wouldn’t post here if we all just said ‘I love Celeste!’ and called it a day.

--I don’t think unisex names affect the workplace at all – gender is becoming less and less relevant. By the time your kid is old enough for the workplace, it will not even matter. In the future workers probably won’t even bat an eyelid when they find themselves operating alongside Atticus, Keziah, Myckaelah, a male Bailey and a female Grady. Society is changing and becoming far more tolerant for the better, and the name pool is going to change and broaden for the better.

--*RANT WARNING* What really does get on my nerves in when people back off from boy names just because a handful of girls are called that name, even ones like Sawyer and Spencer which are evidently far more popular for boys. Names aren’t “stolen” from boys, in actuality – certain people just realise there are girls called that name and drop it. I’m sure I’ve ranted about this before, but is having your son share a name with a girl a bad thing? Plenty of boys are called Max, and they share a name with a load of dogs. Felix is on my list – I’m aware he would share his name with a lot of cats. Arguably, Ryker shares his name with a prison! But the very idea of their son sharing a name with a girl makes some people just freak out for one reason or another. If there’s room for another double standard here, it has to be that.

I really hope I’ve made my points clear here. Some feelings about this are just very hard to describe and put across, especially when the social implications are called in. I agree with thetxbelle that it can get a bit dramatic at times. On some sites (not NB), it’s pretty much all “ARE THERE NO BOY NAMES LEFT FOR US??? CAPTAIN, WE’RE HEADED FOR A DRY NAME POOL!!!! AUGH!!!!!!!!!”

EDIT: Responding to this:

Dantea and Jam3003...if you are respondig to me, I think you are misreading what I am saying here.. I think it's obvious that the workforce has been historically male-dominated. That is why masculine energy is the more desired trait in that arena. A soft and feminine man or woman is far less likely to become CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It's just hard wired into our DNA to respect that kid of authority. Having a more or less feminine/masculine name will not determine success, but it will definitely shape the child for better or worse, and it will definitely affect first impressions. I'm only offering an explanation as to why people in general use masculine names for girls and not feminine names for boys. I'm not giving my own personal opinion on the matter. I'm not a unisex namer, but I understand why some people are and I can see the appeal. Maybe working in an aggressive an professional business environment has shaped my idea on the matter. I can see how someone who works in a less competitive environment like day-care, or someone who has not yet entered the work force might not see it as clearly.

What's historical is irrelevant to a child's future. And it's not hard-wired into our DNA. DNA determines the cells that will be put together to create tissues for certain areas. It's wired into our CULTURE. Two girls fighting are more likely to get split up than two boys fighting, because of the 'aw, well boys will be boys' mentality. That's how submissiveness and non-aggression are regarded as feminine traits. Boys are told they're strong/smart as compliments. Girls are told they're pretty. This is how social notions form - through socialisation. It doesn't just exist - it's learned. Who was born with the impression heavy metal music is hardcore? No one was. It was learned.

Here’s a historical example that is relevant. There was a certain culture (I spent a year at school learning about it; I’m not naming what it is because I don’t want to offend anyone, that’s not my intention) where men and women were considered equal. Women were leaders and suchlike, thought to have been just as capable as men. Then a new holy book for their predominant religion became popular. This book said that women were property, a burden, useless, etc. and were less valuable than men. Due to the popularity of that book women lost that power balance they once had. Now today in that society they are reclaiming the equality they once had.

[flick]

People don't typically choose to give their sons feminine names for the same reason they don't send them to school in a dress. Traditionally, women wear skirts/dresses and men wear pants. However, no one would think it odd when a little girl walks onto the school yard wearig a pair of pants. this would not blow over so welll if the roles were reversed and a little boy came to school in a dress. Yes, some names are decidedly feminine, and some are decidedly male. But the reason a boys name can work on a girl, and it does not work the same for a boy, is the same as the above example. It's part of the whole "girls can do anything boys can do" feminist thing. Culturally, girls are encouraged to be strong and basically more masculine in energy to get ahead in school, work, and life in general. Boys are not encouraged to be soft and feminine because let's face it, historically, soft and feminine doesn't work in an aggressive work environment. Or in any position of power. A girl with a boy name will feel strong, a boy with a girl name will feel soft. And no one hopes their son will be a "sissy". Gender roles exist people. It's part of our evolution. Get over it.

Again - social implications. WHY is this OK - that is my question. WHY is it ok that we feel this way? It's not.

[flick]

Dantea and Jam3003...if you are respondig to me, I think you are misreading what I am saying here.. I think it's obvious that the workforce has been historically male-dominated. That is why masculine energy is the more desired trait in that arena. A soft and feminine man or woman is far less likely to become CEO of a Fortune 500 company. It's just hard wired into our DNA to respect that kid of authority. Having a more or less feminine/masculine name will not determine success, but it will definitely shape the child for better or worse, and it will definitely affect first impressions. I'm only offering an explanation as to why people in general use masculine names for girls and not feminine names for boys. I'm not giving my own personal opinion on the matter. I'm not a unisex namer, but I understand why some people are and I can see the appeal. Maybe working in an aggressive an professional business environment has shaped my idea on the matter. I can see how someone who works in a less competitive environment like day-care, or someone who has not yet entered the work force might not see it as clearly.

But that's not really what its like anymore, either. I studied HR in college and I did A LOT of investigation into how names effected people in the workforce. In the 80's, that was a valid argument, but it's not anymore. Gender doesn't really matter anymore, so why can't we have names like Isabella or Victoria and still hold authority in a company? We CAN! That's the thing - it's has little do do with gender anymore, so we don't NEED unisex or masculine names for us to have a chance.

And again - it comes down to WHY these social feelings are OK and just accepted. It blows my mind that people are just OK with our society feeling this way when so many groups of people have fought for so many years to be equal - but when it comes to males having the ability to be feminine or "soft", we just ignore it.